Champagne Socialism

[Genghis Cohen]

Last Monday a French friend was telling me how she and her family had drunk four bottles of champagne toasting the victory of FH.

Then followed by a discourse telling me all the wonderful things he is going to do. Social justice, help for the underprivileged, spend more on health and education etc. All this to be paid for by taxing the wealthy.

She said all this standing outside her detached four bedroom house, located on a substantial plot in a much sought after quartier of a very popular seaside village. There are two cars on the drive and just two people live in this property.

She has not woken up to the fact that, statistically at least, she is one of the rich ready to be soaked to usher in the new socialist paradise. Ninety five percent of the population can only dream of living as she does. She does not share her good fortune with the poor and destitute. That is for other people to do.

Socialism is fine for her, and those like her, provided others bear the burden of paying for it.

Genghis Cohen

[Las-Cobas]

She cannot have been a very committed socialist only drinking four bottles of Champagne, I understand that on Sunday, most militant socialists were opening Jeroboam's to celebrate not only the return of Socialism in France, but welcoming a President who will promote the finer wines, cheeses and the other excellent foods, that make the living in France more bearable, especially under these uncertain times.

[Sandra]

a french guy bought champagne for the bar on sunday night and then told us to make sure we kept our money in our pockets !

[Le Petomane]

At the time of Sarkozy's meeting with Gordon Brown, I remember a commentator remarking that Sarkozy, the leader of a nominally right-wing government, was still well to the left of Brown, leader of a nominally left-wing goverment. And he was right. The French believe in the power of the state to improve the quality of the lives of its citizens - a belief the British have long since lost. If you are old, or ill, or poor, you are certainly better off in France than in the UK.

[Las-Cobas]

a french guy bought champagne for the bar on sunday night and then told us to make sure we kept our money in our pockets !

Typical French generosity ! Realising that sterling is going to plummet, and once again the poor Brit is being forced to use Resto du Cour. A real Ami Sandra !

[Christopher]

Socialism is about bringing others UP to the highest level; not dragging the 'lucky' few down to the lowest.

[Brian and Helen]

Socialism is about bringing others UP to the highest level; not dragging the 'lucky' few down to the lowest.

Nice idea - pity is doesn't work in practice.

B

[peter]

Works for the socialist leaders ?

Especially ex Mayors of London, Mine Union Presidents, etc ?

[catalanglais]

Socialism is about bringing others UP to the highest level; not dragging the 'lucky' few down to the lowest.

Nice idea - pity is doesn't work in practice.

B

[Christopher]

Socialism is about bringing others UP to the highest level; not dragging the 'lucky' few down to the lowest.

Nice idea - pity is doesn't work in practice.

B

What makes you think it doesn't work? Try, for example, Comprehensive schools, the NHS...

[peter]

What makes you think it doesn't work? Try, for example, Comprehensive schools, the NHS...

I'm not sure they are the best examples ...

[Christopher]

Name some better ones then...

[peter]

I agree.

It is hard to find any !

[Brian and Helen]

Well,
Comprehensive education has been a total disaster for 40 years.
I'll grant you the NHS was world-class as a concept, unfortunately l'actualite is now an expensive bureaucratic joke.
Historically, socialist governments haven't done terribly well economically (not that economics is everything)
State ownership = sclerotic industry, because there is no incentive to invest and innovate (also at the whim of Govt, eg the railways in the 1980s, and yes I know that was a Con govt, it doesn't change the basic issue)
Lack of control of Government spending especially on quasi-social projects (you know, completely unnecessary local spending on various outreach groups, officers and inspectors, box-tickers, co-operatives etc)

I could carry on at some length, but that'll do for now. Good intentions are admirable, but managing those intentions is the key to success.

B

[hesfordj]

I would argue that Socialism hasn't worked in Britain in most cases. In France however, it appears to have worked much better. France has Comprehensive schools and its private schools are not ludicrously expensive, as they are in the UK. France has a national health system that is the envy of nearly every country in the world. It also has world leading companies covering cars, fashion, food and drink, pharmaceuticals, energy, aerospace, defence ...

Socialism seems to work when you restrict it to making sure that everyone gets a fair chance and that the unfortunate and the less able are given a helping hand. When a countries resources are managed, but not its industries.When you force standardisation on people and to cap their ability to improve their situation, it doesn't work. It's also poor at innovation and building business.

As has been said, socialism in Britain has a history of terribly inefficient nationalised industries run by talentless dullards who's jobs were protected by political power, quangos with no set purpose staffed by either radicals of middle-class loafers, housing projects that have created monstrosities populated by people who've lost the will to work to improve their lives and an education policy that has rewarded mediocrity.

There's nothing wrong with socialism as a concept. In fact the concept is at the heart of human social groups. It's just how it is implemented and who implements it that causes it to fail.

My only fear about Hollande is that he comes from a trade union background and those people tend to make poor politicians once they have to look after people who are not their members.

[Christopher]

How versatile Socialism is. On the one hand:

I would argue that Socialism hasn't worked in Britain in most cases. In France however, it appears to have worked much better. France has....world leading companies covering cars, fashion, food and drink, pharmaceuticals, energy, aerospace, defence ...

But on the other hand

Socialism...(is) poor at innovation and building business.

Luckily, capitalism - just to cite one, random, alternative, works perfectly every time with Market Forces ensuring that, again a random example, poor people get the health care they need in the United States while guaranteeing that rich people there pay their fair share of taxes.

[Brian and Helen]

Interesting dichotomy emerging here - socialism could work better in France than in the UK, so why?

On specifics, nobody can argue with the French health system, although how long it is sustainable in its present form is questionable, but its superiority is beyond question; education - yes it's generally good, but many parents find it too restrictive and "one size fits all", the brilliance doesn't shine through, but the average is better; in industry, French automobiles are only in existence because of protectionism (PSA and Renault have quite some leeway to make up on the likes of BMW, VW, Honda and Toyota), aerospace yes, but Dassault and Airbus both benefit from the cosy French "system"; pharma is indeed very good; food and fashion, I would argue succeed despite the regime, not because of it.

Nonetheless, we have to acknowledge some signal successes, so why is it different in the UK? In English terms that means the Labour party -
is it still hankering back to the "them and us" days of downtrodden workers in the early 20th century?
is it a self-fulfilling victim of that widespread English vice - inverted snobbery?
are the "bleeding heart" English socialists more prone to throw away money on pointless but good-sounding causes in the name of "inclusiveness" and "fairness"?
basically has the UK Labour party ceased to be Socialist in anything but name and is it relevant to 2012?

I'm not saying capitalism is any better, I could equally produce a list of questions about that, but Socialism is the point at issue in this thread.

Brian

[Le Petomane]

Well, Brian, feel absolutely free to start your own thread about the drawbacks of the free market. On vous attend avec impatience...

[Brian and Helen]

I'm sure you do, Le Petomane, but I counsel patience, why don't you give me a lead?

You could start off with why do 50% of the residents of Pezenas pay no property taxes?

Brian

[Christopher]

Because they're married to someone who does? What do i win?

[Brian and Helen]

Because they're married to someone who does? What do i win?

Dix points, Chris! How about a bottle of Socialist champagne? Or Badoit, as the rest of us call it.

Brian

ps, fair deal, now let's rephrase that as "households"

[Christopher]

Can't afford Badoit, we drink Lidl's finest sparkling - water and Crémant, in fact. Champagne is over-rated at under €50.
And like I said before, the point of socialism is to make everyone rich, not everyone poor.

[Brian and Helen]

And like I said before, the point of socialism is to make everyone rich, not everyone poor.

Couldn't agree more. When is someone going to figure out a way of doing it in practice? So far all efforts seem to have made the poor even poorer (eventually) and left the rich untouched (less eventually).

Brian

[Le Petomane]

May I congratulate the forum on coming to life for the first time in months? This thread certainly beats those endless enquiries like "Does anyone know where I can buy kippers in Cessenon-sur-Orb?".

[catalanglais]

socialism could work better in France than in the UK

Particularly as France hasn't had a socialist president for over twenty years and even his hands were tied for some of the time by a right wing National Assembly.

I totally agree, Le P. A pleasure to read.