Royalty???

[Las-Cobas]

You may find this article of interest, GC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18237280

For what it's worth, I'm part of the 80%

How surprising, I bet none of us suspected !

[Christopher]

Just because Republicans are in the minority doesn't mean they're also in the wrong. What's to love about a Monarchy? Giving one person the inalienable right to send anyone to their death/war/chip shop on a whim doesn't strike me as very 21st century.
Anyone who can come up with an advantage to having an unelected, super-wealthy old woman as our supreme overlord wins a right royal slap-up feed at my expense. NB: If you're planning to use either 'It attracts the tourists' or 'It's better than the alternative' you've won the argument for me.

[Las-Cobas]

Just because Republicans are in the minority doesn't mean they're also in the wrong. What's to love about a Monarchy? Giving one person the inalienable right to send anyone to their death/war/chip shop on a whim doesn't strike me as very 21st century.
Anyone who can come up with an advantage to having an unelected, super-wealthy old woman as our supreme overlord wins a right royal slap-up feed at my expense. NB: If you're planning to use either 'It attracts the tourists' or 'It's better than the alternative' you've won the argument for me.

I feel so ashamed Christopher, for the first time in my life I have to agree with your post!

[Christopher]

I feel so ashamed Christopher, for the first time in my life I have to agree with your post!

Think how dirty you agreeing with me makes me feel! La honte!

[Genghis Cohen]

I would be prepared to abide by the freely expressed democratic will of the people. To whit:-

A referendum on retaining the monarchy when the current jobholder expires.
A vote on who should wear the crown if the answer to the above is "Yes"
A referendum every five years to re-confirm public confidence in the current job holder. In the event of a no confidence vote the jobholder retires and the job ceases to exist.
Compulsory retirement of the job holder at state retirement age. Replacement chosen by referendum.

Genghis Cohen

[Las-Cobas]

Think how dirty you agreeing with me makes me feel! La honte!

[Christopher]

I would be prepared to abide by the freely expressed democratic will of the people. To whit:-

A referendum on retaining the monarchy when the current jobholder expires.
A vote on who should wear the crown if the answer to the above is "Yes"
A referendum every five years to re-confirm public confidence in the current job holder. In the event of a no confidence vote the jobholder retires and the job ceases to exist.
Compulsory retirement of the job holder at state retirement age. Replacement chosen by referendum.

Genghis Cohen

Apart from the wearing of the crown bit, they have one of those in France - they call him/her 'President', though, not King or Queen.

[Brian and Helen]

Just because Republicans are in the minority doesn't mean they're also in the wrong. What's to love about a Monarchy? Giving one person the inalienable right to send anyone to their death/war/chip shop on a whim doesn't strike me as very 21st century.
Anyone who can come up with an advantage to having an unelected, super-wealthy old woman as our supreme overlord wins a right royal slap-up feed at my expense.

Nobody said Republcans were wrong, Christopher - misguided certainly, in need of help possibly - but this is just to remind you that constitutionally the Monarch alas has none of the powers you ascribe to her (a pity, sometimes).

I think the reason that the Queen is so valuable is that she is an apolitical figure that so many diverse citizens of the UK and the Commonwealth can relate to, someone of continuity who transcends politics, trends and local issues to represent an over-riding idea, or even ideal. She has long demonstrated (at one level) a wealth of kindness and generosity to everyone she meets, and at another an acute understanding of the prevailing socio-politico-economic situation as it arises so that her diplomatic role is invaluable (likewise embarrassing her Prime Ministers in their weekly meetings!)

I also think you ought to do a bit more revision on the subject of finances - the Queen's estate income all passes directly to the Treasury, a small portion of which is then handed back to her as pocket money (and she pays income tax).

But apart from that . . .

Brian

[Christopher]

First, please, argue against the arguments and not the person; see my signature for details.
You are wrong both about the Queen's power and money, although they're not the main point of my argument. However, as there is a lot of misunderstanding on both points I'll resume the real situation for you.
The Queen holds ultimate power in the UK and in a number of Commonwealth countries; the power is devolved to unelected representatives - the Governor of Australia, for example - as well as elected governments - Prime Ministers, Parliaments and so on, politicians who wield this power willingly; see Mrs Thatcher and the Falklands war, Tony Blair and Iraq and so on. In Australia in 1975 and Canada in 2007 their respective parliaments were dismissed completely and prorogued for several weeks by the Queen's representatives.
The fact that she apparently chooses not to exercise these powers personally is neither here nor there; she could, if she wished, dismiss Parliament, refuse to sign a Bill and do any number of things. In fact, she delegates these powers to others to do with as they will, so they use them without having been given such powers democratically.
As for her money, she does indeed hand over profits from the Crown Estate (about £200m) in return for the Civil List (about £41.5m), which will change next year to give her 15% of the CE surplus. However, a more realistic estimate of how much it costs to maintain her is around £184 million, taking into account security, upkeep of palaces, lost tax, lost revenue from the Duchy of Cornwall and Lancaster and so on. And, in any case, the Crown Estates are not the Queen's personal property, belonging to her only in her capacity as Head of State and, therefore, rightly the properly of the country and not her; effectively she is, very generously, giving back to us what is already ours.
But my main argument against having an unelected Head of State is just that - she is unelected; much-loved for sure, a 'nice' person in the British sense of the word; but nevertheless unelected and unrepresentative. I do not care if an elected Head of State turns out to be a rotten scumbag idiot - we can vote them out next time round or even sack them according to whatever safeguard processes we put in place. Monarchs are there until they die, a symbol of a bygone medieval era when the guy with the biggest sword and largest group of thugs got to rule over those less physically powerful.
We are a civilised people now, capable of making and competent to make our own decisions about how we want our country run and governed. I refuse to accept an historical accident that puts someone in final, absolute and total control of my life by an accident of birth.

[gurubarry]

Apart from the cost of Gary Barlow composing a new National Anthem....."God help us All Duckies", and changing all our postage stamps and banknotes, and Swans having to be adopted by Amensty International ...Voting for a Head of State doesn't seem any better than the Sovereign system . Mr. Assad is happy with the voting ,as are ALL the Dictators ...Voted in as heads of States .Hitler was well voted in and ; Look what's happened to France now . A confidence booster if ever one was needed.

Imagine Boris Johnson , or Ken Livingstone being voted in as King ? Or The Boss of the N.F. or an Islamic Cleric ...it could happen . Better the Devils we know .....God Bless 'em ....cos' I don't .but I prefer them, to Gerry Adams , as my King.

It could happen !!

[Christopher]

Apart from the cost of Gary Barlow composing a new National Anthem....."God help us All Duckies", and changing all our postage stamps and banknotes, and Swans having to be adopted by Amensty International ...Voting for a Head of State doesn't seem any better than the Sovereign system . Mr. Assad is happy with the voting ,as are ALL the Dictators ...Voted in as heads of States .Hitler was well voted in and ; Look what's happened to France now . A confidence booster if ever one was needed.

Imagine Boris Johnson , or Ken Livingstone being voted in as King ? Or The Boss of the N.F. or an Islamic Cleric ...it could happen . Better the Devils we know .....God Bless 'em ....cos' I don't .but I prefer them, to Gerry Adams , as my King.

It could happen !!

Thanks for making my point for me. Any more?

[Las-Cobas]

Just think of all the pollution on and in the Thames, who pays for cleaning it up ?
Who will have to pay for the whole sorry saga ? certainly not the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

Long live the Republic!

[Brian and Helen]

I'm certainly not attacking you personally, Chris, (in fact I don't see how anyone could draw that conclusion from my carefully-phrased and reasoned posting) but I would argue that the Monarch is constitutionally unable to declare war or order somebody executed; she may well have the power to send someone out for chips, but that's because she pays them to do so (rather as you pay your servants, or "tradesmen" as they are now called.)

It is also quite reasonable to argue that the Crown Estates are family property, built up by her ancestors over 1500 years, and therefore do not belong to the UK people. This is a little simplistic, perhaps, but perfectly valid.

As for pollution on the Thames, if all the Republicans and other sans-culottes refrained from throwing their McNuggets boxes and empty lager cans into the river, cleaning it up wouldn't be necessary.

Brian

[Christopher]

Brian, I respect your right to holdi opinions even though they fly in the face of all available evidence. Personally, I enjoy living in an evidence-based world which seems to work much better for me.
Good luck.

[gurubarry]

I just saved the Nation a fortune ....The New Republica National Anthem ...no copyright, my gift to the Republic of England , sponsored by H.S.B.C. Coca Cola and McDonalds ..."They do what They like with the tin"

To the Tune of "You'll Never Walk Alone"

You'll Never Walk Alone
R. Rogers/O. Hammerstein II
Trad. Arrangement : Gurubarry

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark

At the end of the storm
Is a golden handshake
And the sweet silver song of the lark

Walk on through the wind
Walk on through the rain
Though your Bank Account is Lost

Walk on walk on, with your Visa Card
And you'll never walk alone
With a Big Mac and a coke

When you walk through a storm
With your annuity paid
you wont be afraid of the dark

At the end of the debt
Is a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of the nark

Walk on through the wind
Walk on through the rain
Though your dreams be tossed and blown

Walk on walk on ,with your Party Card
But you'll never walk again,
If you didn't vote for me

You'll never walk
You'll never walk, again!

ITHANKYEW

[Brian and Helen]

I'm sure everyone on this site is avidly watching the Jubilee Pageant on the Beeb . . .

Edit: Actually I said that in jest, my tongue firmly in my cheek, but if you do catch a glimpse of it (as I just did) it is splendidly eccentric and totally bonkers! (Only in Britain . . . )

[peter]

I'm sure everyone on this site is avidly watching the Jubilee Pageant on the Beeb . . .

How did it go ? I was out all day.

[Brian and Helen]

That was my plan too, Peter, but it went awry!

Still you're not too late, you can still tune in to Beeb1 as it approaches the climax.

B

[Las-Cobas]

I'm sure everyone on this site is avidly watching the Jubilee Pageant on the Beeb . . .

Who won Oxford again ?

[Brian and Helen]

I note that in a splendid democratic gesture, the Royal Barge moored alongside HMS PRESIDENT, whence HM will watch the remaining proceedings - so I hope the republicans amongst us are pleased and satisfied by Her thoughtfulness and generosity in acknowledging you.

Brian

[peter]

That was my plan too, Peter, but it went awry!

Still you're not too late, you can still tune in to Beeb1 as it approaches the climax.

B

I've got to go and collect my dog !

[Brian and Helen]

I trust it's a corgi, Peter!

B

[Brian and Helen]

I must say, it has been a vintage afternoon for BBC ex tempore howlers!

I won't even begin to list the appalling commentary errors we have heard this afternoon, but I think some particularly stupid pundit just topped them all with:

" XXX have been hatmakers for over 200 years and supplied the hat that Nelson wore at the Battle of Waterloo"

(that's one in the eye for Emma Hamilton- she died just 5 months before his greatest triumph)

You can't get the staff y'know . . .

Brian

[Las-Cobas]

I note that in a splendid democratic gesture, the Royal Barge moored alongside HMS PRESIDENT, whence HM will watch the remaining proceedings Brian

Urr Brian she was renamed HMS President in 1922, before that she HMS Saxifrage commissioned in 1918, now owned by MLS Group Plc. since 2006. Maybe it should be MV President!

[Brian and Helen]

Quite right about MLS, LasC, but she is still officially a shore establishment of the RNVR, therefore "HMS".

Brian